More than 50 years after emerging as a potential treatment for anxiety and depression, addiction, post-traumatic stress disorder and other chronic illnesses, psychedelics appear to be making a comeback. But where does the research stand currently on psychedelics and what do we really know about how these compounds may affect the brain?
With the number of people living with mental health conditions on the rise and the re-emergence of psychedelics as a possible therapy, this topic is very timely. Some may call it a “perfect storm” – one the medical and scientific communities will need to carefully navigate, in order to tap the potential of psychedelics, safely and cautiously.
Featuring:
Dr. Susan Abbey is Psychiatrist-in-Chief at the University Health Network (UHN), and a Clinician Investigator with the Toronto General Hospital Research Institute. She is also a Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at The University of Toronto and the inaugural Director of the Nikean Psychedelic Psychotherapy Research Centre at UHN.
Dr. Lakshmi Kotra is a Medicinal Chemist and Senior Scientist with Krembil Brain Institute and a Professor of Medicinal Chemistry at The University of Toronto. He is also an academic entrepreneur with three decades of expertise in drug discovery, development, and pharmaceuticals, and the co-founder and CEO of Lucid Psycheceuticals.
Additional Resources:
Nikean Psychedelic Psychotherapy Research Centre at UHN
First-of-its-kind research centre will bring psychedelic psychotherapy to UHN
The Revival of Psychedelic Research – ORT Times article
Lucid Psycheceuticals
The Your Complex Brain production team is Heather Sherman, Jessica Schmidt, Dr. Amy Ma, Kim Perry, Sara Yuan, Meagan Anderi, Liz Chapman, and Lorna Gilfedder.
The Krembil Brain Institute, part of University Health Network, in Toronto, is home to one of the world's largest and most comprehensive teams of physicians and scientists uniquely working hand-in-hand to prevent and confront problems of the brain and spine, such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, epilepsy, stroke, spinal cord injury, chronic pain, brain cancer or concussion, in their lifetime. Through state-of-the-art patient care and advanced research, we are working relentlessly toward finding new treatments and cures.
Do you want to know more about the Krembil Brain Institute at UHN? Visit us at: uhn.ca/krembil
To get in touch, email us at krembil@uhn.ca or message us on social media:
Instagram - @krembilresearch
Twitter - @KBI_UHN
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/KrembilBrainInstitute
Thanks for listening!
More than 50 years after emerging as a potential treatment for anxiety and depression, addiction, post-traumatic stress disorder and other chronic illnesses, psychedelics appear to be making a comeback. But where does the research stand currently on psychedelics and what do we really know about how these compounds may affect the brain?
With the number of people living with mental health conditions on the rise and the re-emergence of psychedelics as a possible therapy, this topic is very timely. Some may call it a “perfect storm” – one the medical and scientific communities will need to carefully navigate, in order to tap the potential of psychedelics, safely and cautiously.
Featuring:
Dr. Susan Abbey is Psychiatrist-in-Chief at the University Health Network (UHN), and a Clinician Investigator with the Toronto General Hospital Research Institute. She is also a Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at The University of Toronto and the inaugural Director of the Nikean Psychedelic Psychotherapy Research Centre at UHN.
Dr. Lakshmi Kotra is a Medicinal Chemist and Senior Scientist with Krembil Brain Institute and a Professor of Medicinal Chemistry at The University of Toronto. He is also an academic entrepreneur with three decades of expertise in drug discovery, development, and pharmaceuticals, and the co-founder and CEO of Lucid Psycheceuticals.
Additional Resources:
Nikean Psychedelic Psychotherapy Research Centre at UHN
First-of-its-kind research centre will bring psychedelic psychotherapy to UHN
The Revival of Psychedelic Research – ORT Times article
Lucid Psycheceuticals
The Your Complex Brain production team is Heather Sherman, Jessica Schmidt, Dr. Amy Ma, Kim Perry, Sara Yuan, Meagan Anderi, Liz Chapman, and Lorna Gilfedder.
The Krembil Brain Institute, part of University Health Network, in Toronto, is home to one of the world's largest and most comprehensive teams of physicians and scientists uniquely working hand-in-hand to prevent and confront problems of the brain and spine, such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, epilepsy, stroke, spinal cord injury, chronic pain, brain cancer or concussion, in their lifetime. Through state-of-the-art patient care and advanced research, we are working relentlessly toward finding new treatments and cures.
Do you want to know more about the Krembil Brain Institute at UHN? Visit us at: uhn.ca/krembil
To get in touch, email us at krembil@uhn.ca or message us on social media:
Instagram - @krembilresearch
Twitter - @KBI_UHN
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/KrembilBrainInstitute
Thanks for listening!
Heather 00:00
[Your Complex Brain theme music] This is Your Complex Brain, a podcast all about the brain, the diseases that impact it, and the path to finding cures. I'm your host, Heather Sherman, and I have the great pleasure of working alongside the team at Krembil Brain Institute in Toronto, Canada, a leader in brain research and patient care. In each episode, we'll take you behind the scenes into our clinics and our research labs to meet the game changers of the future, and we'll empower you with the latest research to help you take charge of your own health. You'll also hear directly from patients who are living with brain disease and the care teams who support them. Join us on a journey to unravel the mystery of your complex brain. [theme music continues then fades out]
Reporter 1 01:05
[dramatic news theme music] Psychedelic drugs are commonly reported to trigger life-altering, mind-expanding, inward journeys. But, since being scheduled dangerous and illegal, any therapeutic benefits have gone largely... [dramatic sting] unrecognized.
Reporter 2 01:07
[urgent news theme music] In the '50s, Canadian researchers were considered world leaders in the use of psychedelics to treat mental health issues. But in the '60s, you couldn't mention these drugs without thinking of hippies. Today, there's a second wave of this controversial treatment, and it's showing promise.
Reporter 3 01:38
[music continues] We're in the middle of a mental health tsunami, and the reality is, there's been no real innovation in medicinal drug discovery for psychiatric disorders in at least 50 years. [urgent news theme music ends]
Heather 01:56
[Your Complex Brain theme music] More than 50 years after emerging as a potential treatment for chronic illnesses like anxiety, depression, addiction, and post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, psychedelics appear to be making a comeback. It's timely, too. The number of people living with mental health conditions is rising exponentially, particularly since COVID-19, and there is a desperate need for new approaches and treatments to help these patients. Some may call it a perfect storm; one the medical and scientific communities will need to carefully navigate to be able to truly tap the potential of psychedelics, safely and cautiously. [theme music continues] Our next guests are both experts in this domain, and well positioned to help us understand the balance between hope and hype when it comes to psychedelics. Dr. Susan Abbey is Psychiatrist in Chief at the University Health Network and a Clinician Investigator with the Toronto General Hospital Research Institute. Dr. Lakshmi Kotra is a Medicinal Chemist and Senior Scientist with Krembil Brain Institute. And, as the Co-Founder of Lucid Psycheceuticals , he is an academic entrepreneur with expertise in drug discovery and development. Welcome to both of you, and thanks for joining me on the podcast. [theme music fades out]
Dr. Abbey 03:18
Delighted to be here, Heather.
Dr. Kotra 03:20
Thank you, Heather.
Heather 03:22
Dr. Abbey, let's start with you. What are psychedelic drugs? And how do they work, exactly?
Dr. Abbey 03:27
There's a broad group of psychedelic drugs, agents that are within this realm of psychedelic drugs, that seem to produce experiences in the brain, and different drugs produce different experiences in the brain. Typically, people have grouped them together. It's not a really common term right now, but I think it's going to become more commonly used, called "non-ordinary states,” you know, meaning that the state of the brain isn't, kind of, ordinary processing. And the way in which it may not be ordinary, may differ between the different substances. So, some of them give people feelings of, what would be, standard kind of hallucination or psychedelic experiences. You know, distortions in colour and shape, mystical experiences. Some may give people overwhelming feelings of love, and kind of oneness with the universe. So, there are all of these different non-ordinary states, and the thought is – or the sort of, the fundamental premise of this is – that having that non-ordinary state, and then being able to have a psychotherapy with a psychotherapist who understands the non-ordinary state, allows you to process it, understand it, integrate it. And what its implications would be for your, kind of, day-to-day life and for your mental health problem. It may then help you to be able to really, sort of, shift that mental health problem.
Dr. Kotra 04:55
From my perspective, psychedelics -- you know, let's not put the word "drugs" to it, in my world, where drugs are basically medicines controlled through healthcare system. So, psychedelics are molecules. Obviously, 50 years ago, as you pointed out, you know, they were discovered, but they've been around for thousands of years in traditional medicine, and in certain cultures, what not. And, as our medical research in the past 50, 70 years has been evolving, you know, from the point of view of how we evaluate and conduct research, and bring drugs into the market type of thing, the similar kind of rigour did not go into these things. So that's what, you know, your introductory statement of 50 years ago, they weren't there. Yes, our regulations were different in those days, and then they entered into the controlled-substance category in many, many countries around the world, so they were not accessible to any medical practitioners. And, only in the recent days, especially this was driven by the cannabis-related legalizations, and the need, as you pointed out, in the context of mental health-related issues that they have coming out, and everything that Dr. Abbey just pointed out, you know, what these drugs in the older days, that people have known about, and how traditional cultures have been using, is absolutely relevant in that context.
Heather 06:22
Well, what do we know about how psychedelics actually affect the brain? Can you kind of walk us through the process and the changes that are actually happening?
Dr. Kotra 06:29
[gentle electronic music] Absolutely. So, usually, as human beings, when we experience any disease – you know, discomfort, disease – we do take external substances, right? Something that is not part of our body to make us feel better. This could be as simple as chicken soup, you know, that we many times use, [Heather chuckles] versus some very complicated medicines that we need hospitalization, and things of that nature. Everything that enters our body affects our body, and different drugs do that differently. Specifically, psychedelics, as the word that stands, and also how popular culture has been dealing with this term, in general, is exactly the definition that Dr. Abbey just earlier mentioned, that mystical experiences, non-ordinary state, if you will, and hallucinations, a few other words, also: consciousness-altering, or spiritual experience, or even some people add all of that along with well-being, as well, and mind-altering. These are all the terms of types of things. Now, if we try to look at it, you know, "Why is that happening in the brain?" or, "Why, as a person, I, if I were to be subjected to this molecule, like this experience?", it's all to do with our brain. Our brain is at the centre of everything, right? And, whether we perceive something, whether we think something, or even if I want to lift my hand, my brain is controlling everything. And the research into what these drugs are doing to our body or, for that matter, using several other experimental research, only in the recent days, coming out, simply because we, as researchers, did not have access to these compounds because they are controlled substances. Very similar to the story of cannabis. It goes back 15 years. We didn't know much, right? Now, having said that, some of the sophisticated technology is being employed now, and especially in US, Canada, Europe, a lot of research has started to happen. And where we are going here is that we now have the understanding that these drugs do physical changes to our brain, and also, due to the result of the physical change, how our brain operates, also.
Heather 09:00
So, it's altering the connectivity, in that sense?
Dr. Kotra 09:02
There is evidence in that direction.
Heather 09:04
Interesting. Dr. Abbey, do you want to add to that, in terms of what we're learning about how psychedelics are affecting the brain?
Dr. Abbey 09:11
I think that we're learning -- you know, it's a very busy field in research right now. I think that there is the awareness that, often, with these compounds, and I don't know what – if we can agree on a word to call them, or molecules – [Dr. Abbey and Heather chuckle] that there are very significant changes in the brain. So, with some of them, for example, they will really kind of flood the brain with serotonin and open new learning pathways. But one of the things that's so interesting, and Lakshmi may disagree with me about this, but I think there's the molecule, but I think the other part, and sort of what we're most interested in, is nesting that within a psychotherapeutic experience. Because I think, sort of, my understanding of these compounds is that they give people these experiences, and they give them an opportunity to learn and to experience things in a different way, and then, you need to understand that. And so, you know, where this, for example, could be really helpful is for somebody who, you know, has had really treatment-resistant PTSD, a lot of very negative, sort of, self-beliefs about their worth and their value. And, if then, under the treatment with the molecule of NMDA, they have this kind of oceanic experience of love, and then they have to make sense of that afterwards.
Heather 10:32
And potentially repeat it.
Dr. Abbey 10:33
Potentially repeat it, but also maybe, like, "Well, maybe I am lovable." And, "You know, maybe I have this capacity to experience this," and, "This is something that I never thought could happen to me. So, what other things do, I think, never could happen to me, that I might have within my control to start to work with in a different way?" And so, it's that piece, then, after, that's outside of the medicine session itself. [gentle electronic music] It's all of that work. It's all the work in preparing people for the medicine, and then all of the work after the medicine that really brings value to the experience.
Heather 11:07
Okay, so you did mention patients who are dealing with certain issues. What other types of patients might be a candidate for this therapy?
Dr. Abbey 11:13
Yeah, so the kinds of things that have been done so far, so there's end-of-life distress, and it's very interesting there because, again, people often have these experiences of love and oneness with the universe and kind of not ceasing -- you know, this kind of broad, expansive, feeling like, "I'm not going to cease to exist," that's very comforting if you've been really anxious about dying. So palliative care is a big one. Post-traumatic stress disorder, which has been a very challenging disorder for people to treat, and, really, some remarkable results there. People have been interested in whether this may be helpful with treatment-resistant depressions, and so I think that there's some beginning evidence in that area, but it's complicated. Lots of interest in whether this may be helpful in substance misuse, abuse conditions. Some interest in whether this may be helpful in eating disorders, for example. So, I think people are really looking at a wide range of disorders. What seems to unite them is that people's minds often become very fixed in a very, kind of, narrow view of the world, and that there may be something about this experience that allows an expansion, and that, then, allows people to process that, and what the meaning may be, that there are other realities, other ways of looking at problems.
Heather 12:39
Well, Dr. Abbey, you've been seeing patients for many years. I mean, how great is the need for new therapeutics or new avenues to address mental health right now?
Dr. Abbey 12:48
It's like huge. Right? It's huge, that you can look at any of those disorders that I've mentioned. I mean, we really made progress in the last 30, 40 years in developing, you know, more medications, more evidence-based psychotherapies, and understanding how to time medication and psychotherapy. So, there's a lot of really good work that's been done. But, having said that, there are still really significant-- if you look within each of those sort of mental health diagnoses, there are really significant numbers of people that are treatment resistant, that our current treatments don't work for, that are, you know, endlessly frustrated, kind of go one treatment after another, and it doesn't really make a difference. And I think what has the mental health field so excited about these compounds is that, at least in the preliminary work that's been done, it looks like this may be a real game-changer for people who haven't gotten benefits so far. Now, having said that, [laughs] I can see a whole bunch of people are gonna immediately phone up and say, "Let me try this." It's not ready for primetime yet. Right? There's a lot of, kind of, research that still needs to be done in understanding, you know, how much people need, how it needs to be dosed, what kind of therapy, how the therapy should be sequenced. There's, sort of, many scientific questions that remain before this is really ready for primetime. Like, people are just so excited about the kind of potential that this opens for us. And also, in maybe understanding some of these mechanisms with the psychotherapy, is there some way that we could achieve this without the compounds? I don't know. But I think probably it's really, it's the molecule plus the therapy that's important. But Lakshmi may disagree. [laughs] I think there are a lot of people that are hoping that the molecule alone will take the place of some of our medicines.
Dr. Kotra 14:40
Susan, I think that you brought up very good points here. I'll try to contextualize this with some of the trends that are going on from the development, R&D standpoint of view. Right now, while popular press standpoint of the data is a lot of hype going on in psychedelics, and also there are some clinics that are coming up. You know, certainly in Canada, we've seen ketamine-based therapies are being administered. These are pretty expensive ones. Having said that, the psilocybin, MDMA, LSD, these are the types of things that typically are getting more popular press. And I totally agree, there are traditional and even current practices around psychotherapy-assisted treatment, so there is a need for psychologists to drive the so-called experience. And, having said that, you know, currently, I believe psilocybin, LSD type of compounds have completed or have reached phase II clinical trials. They're not really at phase III, and even the current results we have, they're being very carefully analyzed to understand how they are affecting patients, if you will. And there is no question there is a huge need for all the conditions. However, some of the practical issues and challenges, considering the scope of the disease, how drugs can be administered, need to be administered, that reached the population standpoint of view, certainly research is being undertaken to see if there is a potential to make this without a subjective experience or a psychotherapy-based experience. [gentle electronic music] We don't know that. [laughs] And it's certainly one of the things that I want to bring up is so-called -- these psychedelic molecules we don't hear a lot about, but there could be unwanted outcomes when they are used. We don't hear a lot about that in the popular press but, if you talk to someone who is, you know, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, who have experience in treatments, they will certainly bring up a lot of examples of that. None of us want to be on that side of the story because, to me, personally, when I think about it, I'm taking something and, the next day, my brain is totally different, if that's an unwanted effect. [laughs] So those are the some of the things that I think we still are trying to understand, and for which patient or what type of patient, what are the criteria, even to make sure that it's 100% safe, if you will, with whatever we can. So, it's exciting, but that excitement comes with even more higher level of caution at this stage, and our research is very, very important, especially in the clinical trials standpoint. [gentle electronic music continues then fades out]
Heather 17:44
Well, Dr. Kotra, I wanted to ask you more about the science, too, because a lot of these illnesses that we're talking about, depression, anxiety, they're often precursors to more serious neurological issues and diseases. So, could this research eventually help us better understand brain disease, overall?
Dr. Kotra 18:00
100%. Mental health, in the past 10 years especially, has been recognized as a prodromic symptom. Basically, what that means is that our mental health conditions start to show up in people before the complete diagnosis of neurodegenerative disorders such as Alzheimer's, or multiple sclerosis, and of that nature, not that everyone, you know, who has mental health issues is going to be developing a neurodegenerative disorder. But, at least, there is sufficient literature now to support that, epidemiologically, we see that correlation and comorbidity existing. And also, we are learning from research that, as I pointed out earlier, is psychedelic molecules. You know, from the research point of view, these are serotonin and other receptor-ligands do promote new neuronal connectivity, and alterations in the blood-flow and things of that nature. Now, from science point of view, this is very exciting for us, because we see that there is, you know, changes happening, and we are able to track and see, you give a compound, you see changes, you know, connectivity point of view. [gentle electronic music] So, your question about the implications of research in psychedelic molecules, and how they are impacting our neurons and neuronal connectivity, and the potential to, not only better understand neurodegenerative disorders, but probably be able to prevent or slow down appearance of such disorders through these types of medications is, I think, very exciting from a research point of view. Now, having said that, this is all research right now. [laughs] I am not going to go out and take something thinking that my Alzheimer's is not going to come, right? So, no. It's all research, yes. [gentle electronic music continues]
Heather 20:00
But you're saying that this research could potentially lead to a breakthrough in one of these other brain-related illnesses like Alzheimer's or dementia?
Dr. Kotra 20:07
Absolutely. There is intense research already going on. In my own lab, we are looking into some of that, and also in major laboratories in North America. We've recognized that there is a connection, and this all goes back to essentially, think of it like a brain again, right? So, this is all in the brain and these molecules go into the brain. Alzheimer's, it's brain issue. It's a brain problem, you know? Multiple sclerosis, same thing. Sometimes, some of the Parkinson's-related, and mental health also, is in our brain as well, right? So yes, this is all in the same organ, if we were to look at it in our head. [Dr. Kotra and Heather laugh] [music fades out]
Dr. Abbey 20:47
And, to go really far out there, the other thing that that UHN is really interested in is the linkage between physical and mental health, and we know that all of these mental health conditions, like that, actually, you know, the brain is attached to the rest of the body, and that all of these disorders are associated with increased risk of other physical disorders, and so, you know, the potential to really make a difference in people's health status, if we can treat some of the mental health conditions more effectively.
Dr. Kotra 21:19
That's a very good point, Susan. I think our physical health and mental health, if you will, the connectivity of that, is a very good point in this context. Yes.
Heather 21:29
Dr. Abbey, we talked sort of anecdotally about the rise in depression, anxiety, and some of these other illnesses, but you've been treating patients for a long time. [gentle electronic music] So, you know, what are you seeing in your practice? And what is life like for a lot of these patients that come to you?
Dr. Abbey 21:42
I think it's really hard for people. Right? Because there's a lot of ink spilled on this question of, you know, are there more of these disorders or not? I mean, I think we certainly know, since the start of COVID, that yes, and particularly, substance use, alcohol use, and severe alcohol consequences have gone way up. Eating disorders have gone way up. Probably increases in depression and anxiety and some issues there. But the other thing that's sort of really fascinating is that, over time, if you look at people who do something called psychiatric epidemiology, where they kind of count occurrences of diseases and look at public health surveys and things, that the rates of these diagnoses have been increasing over time. And, you know, part of that is probably related to the high stress levels and the, kind of, multiple demands. You know, if you, sort of, figure our brains were developed in the context of life on the Serengeti, you know, where maybe you had to watch for a lion, you know, once a week or something, and now, we've just got these multiple, multiple, constant stressors, it's very challenging for people. You know, once you have one of these illnesses, it really impacts every aspect of your life. It impacts your ability to earn a living. It impacts your relationships, you know, with everybody, with your family, with your partner, with your children. It makes it hard to enjoy life and to do the kinds of things that, you know, the rest of us find meaningful or engaging. It really narrows people's lives.
Heather 23:12
Absolutely. Well, some people are calling this the "rediscovery of psychedelics" after, you know, 50, 60 years ago, they sort of came onto scene and then sort of disappeared. So, what do we need to do this time, differently? What needs to be in place to ensure caution and proper oversight? Is it regulations? Like, how are we truly going to tap the potential of psychedelics safely?
Dr. Kotra 23:32
What we have learned, especially the cannabis experience in Canada, is that access is important to conduct research. So, a government certainly needs to make sure that researchers can gain access to this. That's the first step before we can actually do any research with these substances. And, globally, of course, and United Nations point of view, these are Schedule I drugs, highly controlled substances. So that is certainly something that needs to be done for us to be able to conduct research, whether clinical or non-clinical research. And the other thing also is to recognize the fact that these molecules affect brain, which means that irreversible damage could be consequential for those where this is getting subjected. So, any research, anything that is done until, of course, Health Canada-approved medicines are available-- as I said right now, in the popular compounds point of view, psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, all these names come up, none of those are approved by Health Canada. And so, for us to be able to do that, we have to make sure that these are properly conducted, and skillful and qualified people conducting the research, because there could be irreversible damage that could happen.
Heather 25:01
Right. Well, for anyone listening right now who might be experiencing mental health challenges, themselves, or maybe they know somebody who is, and if they're wondering if psychedelics is the answer, I'd love to ask both of you: bottom line, what do people need to know? Dr. Abbey?
Dr. Abbey 25:15
So, that might be the answer, but not this week or this year, right? And so, I mean, I think that that's very hard, and since we've opened our Nikean Centre for Psychedelic Psychotherapy, every week I get just heart-wrenching emails from people who are, like, ready to, you know, come and get treated. We're not there yet. So, we're working as fast as we can to do really good quality research. When those studies are opened for recruitment, they'll be, you know, posted publicly. So, it's not there yet, but I think that it's hopeful that, you know, good research is being done and, all around the world, people are now starting up with psychedelic research centres and doing it in a very high-quality way, and that, you know, we're going to have results that people are going to be able to depend on in a couple of years. And, in some ways, you might say, "Well, a couple of years is a long time," but, when you look at most of these disorders, for people who have treatment resistance, they have it for literally decades. [gentle electronic music] So, I know I'm not the one suffering, right? So, it's easy for me to say, "a couple more years", but I do think a couple more years to know that we're doing things safely, and we're able to talk about who we can help and who we can't help is important. And, I think, the other thing is that there are a lot of treatments. You know, people are very ambivalent about mental health and about psychiatry and psychology, but actually, we've got good treatments. So, if people are treatment naive, lots of family doctors even are doing, sort of, really good mental health treatment now that family doctors, the Canadian Mental Health Association, at the local general hospital mental health department. There are a lot of places that people can get help. [gentle electronic music continues]
Dr. Kotra 26:58
What I would say is, anyone who's suffering with mental health and looking at psychedelics, specifically, is, all I would say is, there is exciting research happening right now, and it is very encouraging, and it's all in the research side of the story. And for any help, clinically, you know, to get help, because one's suffering, please approach qualified people and follow the guidance, not to take any other approaches. [laughs] That would be the advice I would give. [music continues]
Heather 27:32
Amazing. Well, thank you so much to both of you. This is a fascinating topic. We could go on for hours. [music fades out] I just want to thank you both for your expertise and your passion. [Your Complex Brain theme music] Thanks for joining me today.
Dr. Kotra 27:41
Thank you, Heather.
Dr. Abbey 27:42
Thanks, Heather.
Heather 27:43
[theme music continues] This episode of Your Complex Brain was produced by Jessica Schmidt. Executive Producers are Carley McPherson and Tobin Dalrymple, with production assistance from Dr. Amy Ma, Twayne Pereira, Sara Yuan, and Suzanne Wice. For more information about Krembil Brain Institute, please visit uhn.ca/krembil, and you can reach us by email at krembil@uhnresearch.ca. But please note that, due to privacy regulations, we cannot answer any personal health questions. Thanks for listening. We'll be back in two weeks with another exciting episode. Have a great day. [Your Complex Brain theme music fades out]